This particular downside of EU membership, i.e. that Johnny Foreigner is entitled to turn up in the UK demand a council house and sign on the dole, has been a latent problem for a decade (and I've been mumbling about it ever since I did EU law on my LLB course), but is now coming to the fore. Heck knows why the EU want to extend this to EEA members like Iceland and Norway (who are not in the EU).
As regular readers may know, I am thoroughly in favour of 'Universal Benefits', but one caveat has always been that it's for UK-resident British Citizens only; Johnny Foreigner is only entitled once he has lived here legally and supported himself financial for five or ten years [or whatever] and has qualified for a British passport under the usual rules.
How to deal with British citizens who live abroad, especially with regard to old age pensions, is a thorny - but separate - issue.
Once I dipt into the future
3 hours ago
19 comments:
that Johnny Foreigner is entitled to turn up in the UK demand a council house and sign on the dole
Am I right in thinking that the French don't have this problem?
Without wanting to distract from the core issue: Perhaps it's naive of me, but why would anyone from Iceland, Norway or Leichtenstein want to pitch up here anyway?
A Guy I know is going thru IVF with his wife (surprisingly enough)
putting aside the issue of if the NHS should pay for this at all, He turned up on the due date for their one shot on the NHS (he and his wife has worked since they were 16, his wife had suffered some form of cancer or something)
He got talking to another guy in the clinic who was in with his wife for treatment on the same day, apparently they had been in the UK for 2 years! and been on the same 18 month waiting list.
They were unsuccessful and are now bankrupting themselves for another go.
Its a pretty sick mindset that puts a newcomer on a par with a long standing, peaceful citizen is it not?
Where my wife is now working (no names) is a 4K a night intensive care ward, Today out of just 12 beds they have 3 are occupied by people from the asian sub continent on "holiday" All let in without insurance, and its like that most of the year.
Nice of us all hey?
B, the French have this problem in a very limited form, it's called 'Sangatte' now rebranded as Sangatte 2.
Presumably on the continent as its more of an insurance based system (and I think you have to pay more up front, and maybe get it back later) there's less issue of health tourism.
The good old NHS though will treat anyone without so much as a 'Could you prove you have the right to reside in the UK please?' I'm guessing this is down to not wanting to be accused of racism if they asked all the non-white's to prove they were legal residents.
Surely if it's reciprocal, which I should hope it is, it means that anyone on benefits can move to another country like Spain and get the same!
If so, that can't be right. It would mean half the British population could live in the sun.
As far as I am aware, I had to pay into the system here for a year before I was eligible for any dole etc...
Sobers
Presumably on the continent as its more of an insurance based system (and I think you have to pay more up front, and maybe get it back later) there's less issue of health tourism.
The good old NHS though will treat anyone without so much as a 'Could you prove you have the right to reside in the UK please?' I'm guessing this is down to not wanting to be accused of racism if they asked all the non-white's to prove they were legal residents.
Although they could just ask everyone to prove it......
formertory: but why would anyone from Iceland, Norway or Leichtenstein want to pitch up here anyway?
Trouble is that's what we said about India,Rhodesia, South Africa,Jamaica, Pakistan, British Guyana and so on..
Then we were completely taken by surprise when Immigration from the West Indies was encouraged by the British Nationality Act of 1948, which gave all Commonwealth citizens free entry into Britain, and hundreds of thousands of people turned up.
SEAN: i disagree. I'm more with Jesus on this one.Pay the field hands the same whatever time of day they started. It should not matter how long you have been a UK citizen, the rights must apply to all equally.
However, when the right to be a UK citizen is granted, I'm with Mark. We set a time..5 or 10 years or whatever, and once you're in..you're in.
@Bill Quango: certainly, and a good point, too. However, we'd spent decades and more telling all the Third World mob that the UK was the very epitome of civilisation and creature comforts; it's easy to see why if you've got nothing, a place where there's plenty of something is desirable.
I suspect the good citizens of wealthy and very much First World Iceland, Norway and Leichtenstein would look askance at the best we can offer (though I admit I hadn't thought about IVF and what-have-you on the NHS). The weather's shite, too. And 2 cm of snow brings the place to its knees.
Anyway it'd be very nice to have a few nice leggy Scandinavian blondes about the place.
FT, see what BQ says. Iceland don't have too much money left either, it's possible that a few would come over, but their entire population is only 319,000 so no worries there.
Sobers, Sue, Sean, agreed. When I'm in charge there will be a voucher system like on the continent. No voucher, no cash = no 'free' healthcare.
FT, forget the leggy Norwegian blondes, leggy Polish blonde women will do just fine.
BQ, ta for back up. You're either a full British Citizen with right to vote and claim dole/pension or you're not.
I'd prefer to not worry about how long you lived here, and just auction the right to a citizens dividend (Citizenship).
Auction? Why not just sell? could be a great way to increase government income, and a prudent investment for some...
Suppose the CI is £5k per year (random figure) - the cost of providing that as an annuity from the age of 60 to death (~20 years?) is somewhere in the region of £100k, so presumably 40 to death would be £200k, 20 to death £300k, etc. Price according to age - added benefits include the right to vote...
Not sure if citizenship should be saleable - perhaps returnable to the state for 50% of the "value"?
You also need to think about the children...
An auction is better than a bureaucrat deciding on a price.
fraggle: Children born here or born to parents who are citizens get citizenship for free? That's about how we do it now, isn't it?
AC1: An auction is really no different from letting the bureaucrat decide on a price unless you have strictly mandated numbers up for sale. If the politicians decide how many to sell, then they can put so many on the market as to drive down the price to nothing, or so few as to make them really really expensive. Surely an actuarial evaluation of the actual value of the citizenship would make more sense? Even if you just used that as a starting point for the auction, or as a reserve price.
I'd not be against a system where noone gets citizenship for free (ala Heinlein's Starship Troopers) and it's awarded only to those who complete public service (whether that be by serving on the front line with the military, emptying bins or even by making a substantial donation to the government).
RA and F, AC1's auction idea is perfectly sensible.
In the first year we auction of (say) 50,000, maybe they go for £10,000 each (so we scribble the number £500 million on a bit of paper).
The next year we try it with 60,000 permits. If the price drops to £8,000 or lower, we only net £480 million so that's 'too many' permits. So the year after we try it with 40,000 instead, maybe they go for only £12,000 each, in which case 50,000 was the right number after all - and maybe they go for £15,000 each, in which case result, we net £600 million, and so on and so forth.
Trial and error, just like any business sets its prices.
I am thoroughly in favour of 'Universal Benefits', but one caveat has always been that it's for UK-resident British Citizens only
I would give CBI, health vouchers etc to the UK-resident British Citizens as you say, but I would also allow non-British citizens who are legally resident here to claim back up to the same amount out of their income taxes. Note this would not be administered via PAYE, as I would want a completely flat rate income tax (and no NI) for simplicity. Thus they would have to re-claim the money after the end of each tax year.
I'd not be against a system where noone gets citizenship for free (ala Heinlein's Starship Troopers) and it's awarded only to those who complete public service (whether that be by serving on the front line with the military, emptying bins or even by making a substantial donation to the government).
Military yes. Diversity officers? Smoking cessation coordinators? Maybe not, as it would seem strange to give them citizenship but not give it to the taxpaying barber, pub landlord etc.
Ed,
With a LVT=>Citizens dividend we'd be scrapping transfer taxes ASAP.
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