Sunday 8 March 2009

"Are securitisation companies above the law?"

Carmel B Butler has sent me a brief summary of evidence she submitted to the Treasury Committee looking at the banking crisis (submission 107, available online here, Word Doc), as follows:

The Land Registration Act 2002 provides that a transfer of a mortgage charge must be registered at H.M. Land Registry. Therefore, when a securitisation company buys mortgages from the banks, the law requires that the securitisation company register as the new owner of the mortgage. Given that 80% of recently issued UK mortgages were securitised* and therefore up to 80% of UK mortgages are owned by securitisation companies, have you ever wondered why no securitisation company is registered as owning a UK mortgage and why the banks incorrectly remain the registered as the owner of the mortgages?

The banks have received billions from the public purse because they say, they are the victims of bad borrowers. The Government have asked the banks to declare the extent of the bad debts on their books and the banks are apparently unable to answer that simple question. It is possible that the real reason that banks do not answer the question is because that would require admitting that the banks do not own the mortgages which are the allegedly bad debts on their books and, they would have to admit that they are falsely registered at H.M. Land Registry as the owner of the mortgages.

If the Government insisted that securitisation companies register their ownership of the mortgages at H.M. Land Registry in compliance with section 27 of the Land Registration Act 2002, the banking crisis would be seen in a whole new light and the Government would not have to ask the banks how much bad debt they have on their books.


The politicians like to mutter darkly about "the shadow banking system" as if there is lots of stuff that is hidden away; whereas it turns out that the reverse is probably true - in the specific case of Northern Rock, it appears that auditors misapplied International Accounting Standard 39 and treated securitisation vehicles as subsidiaries, even though under the terms of the agreement between NR and the SPVs, most or all of the potential losses accure to the SPV and NR is actually just the day-to-day administrator and (incorrectly), the registered legal holder of the mortgage at HM Land Registry.

The terms of all the different SPVs that UK banks set up are all slightly different of course, some may be recourse and some non-recourse, and in turn, the investment arms of banks may have invested in SPVs holding mortgages from other banks and so on, but it does support my overall theory that banks are not just wildly overstating their assets/liabilities, but, now that the taxpayer tap has been turned on, are wildly overstating their losses in the hope of filling their boots.

I asked a chap who works in the business, and he reckoned that Carmel's theory is perfectly plausible, the only question is, what sort of overall proportion of UK mortgages have been securitised?

* The 80% figure is taken from Paragon's written evidence, which ought to be here somewhere. It stands to reason that as house prices rose, mortgages became riskier and riskier and more and more were securitised, so the chances are that of the really bad mortgages, the vast majority are securitised.

83 comments:

AntiCitizenOne said...

It stands to reason that as house prices rose relative to salaries.

TheFatBigot said...

Methinks confusion reigneth.

What has to be registered is legal ownership of charges.

Securitisation transfers equitable interests in these charges, but legal ownership stays with the original lender (subject, of course, to the possibility that some inadvertently transfer legal ownership).

It is akin to the position when a house is held in trust. In law the house is owned by the trustees, so they appear on the register as owners even though the right to enjoy the house vests in the beneficiaries under the trust. The trustees have no right to live in the property or receive rent, yet they are still the owners in law so they are rightly named on the register.

Therefore it is simply incorrect to say that the original lenders are wrongly registered as owners of charges created by mortgage.

That doesn't mean that the banks are not overestimating their losses. Non-recourse securitisation agreements release banks from all or some of the future losses, and even recourse agreements often transfer some of the risk outright from the banks.

It all depends on what the securitisation agreements say and which loans default. Therein lies the problem of assessment. Until a loan defaults and loss crystalises it is just a guess how much loss there will be and where it will fall.

Lola said...

This could be interesting, in the same way that the assault on the penalty charges levied by banks worked. The ability afforded by the internet for the citizen to correct the information assymetry led to a concerted and effective assault on these charges - until the caretelised and monopolised banks did a shady deal with New Labour to have the whole thing checked for 'fairness' by a tame Quango, the OFT.

If the various borrowers in threat of respossesion start to colaborate and can mount a lot of effective challenges to the potential repos by pleading that the administering bank has no legal mortgage we will be in for some delicious fun.

I am in no way advocating that anyone should be able to walk away from obligations freely entered into, but I have said for years that there has also been epic irresponsibilty by banks, and they deserve to be brought to account.

Mark Wadsworth said...

TFB, that's not what s27 LRA says, but that is not actually the important bit - the important bit is that banks are wildly overstating assets and losses.

L, even if Carmel's strict interpretation of s27 is correct (and not TFB's) then (I suspect) all the true mortgage owner has to do is to get the mortgage properly registered, s27 doesn't mention a time limit.

TheFatBigot said...

"That's not what s27 LRA says" ... hmmm ... grandmothers and eggs come to mind. Let's take this slowly.

A house purchase loan (known generally but inaccurately as a mortgage) is a loan secured by a charge over land. The type of charge typically created is a legal charge.

The charge is not "taken" by the bank it is granted by the owner of the land (hence the house owner is the mortgagor and the bank is the mortgagee, contrary to widespread popular misuse of language).

The creation of a legal charge is a disposition of a legal interest in the land and must be registered pursuant to s27(2)(f) and Schedule 2 para 8.

That's stage one. The owner of the land creates new property (the charge) and that new property must be registered.

Because it is a piece of property in its own right it can be traded, charged, swapped, gifted etc. That's stage two.

The relevant part of s27 is 27(3), which required dealings in a legal charge to be registered if but only if they amount to a transfer of the charge (s27(3)(a)) or the grant of a charge over the charge (s27(3)(b)) (also Sch 2 paras 10 and 11)). All other dealings with registered charges fall outside the registration regime and can be undertaken freely without any need to change the entry on the Land Register.

The relevant question, therefore, is whether securitisation contracts have the effect in law of transferring the charge or creating a charge over the charge. Unless they have been drafted by (to pluck a phrase out of thin air) a one-eyed Scottish idiot, such contracts will not amount to either a transfer of a legal charge or to a charge over a charge.

They are, therefore, not required to be registered and the original mortgagee remains fully entitled to enforce his charge in accordance with its terms.

This tells us nothing about banks' losses, but it does tell us that there is no great loophole by which defaulting borrowers can escape their liabilities.

There's a further point.

Failure to register a registerable transaction does not make it void or wholly unenforceable. The debt remains but the ways of enforcing it are reduced. All a defaulting borrower can do by seeking loopholes is buy time - time in which his debt will increase.

And, as you rightly point out, a failure to register can be corrected by late registration.

There is nothing in the registration argument, it fails because there is no "transfer" of charges on securitisation. That is what s27 says.

Mark Wadsworth said...

TFB, you're probably right - but this is not the important bit - the important question is how much of their mortgages had banks shifted onto SPVs on a non-recourse basis, that's the important bit.

TheFatBigot said...

I agree entirely, Mr W.

Even if I'm not right (although I am) having the SPVs named on the Land Register as mortgagees would not tell us anything new about the level of loss to be expected nor where it will fall. A bank which shifted 100% of its likely loss-making loans through non-recourse securitisation could still be in the frame for the same level of loss, or even more, by having bought interests in securitised "assets". The only difference is that it would appear differently in the bank's books and it would not be so easy for them to use it as a stick to beat money out of a gullible, panicking government.

I don't know Carmel B Butler and hope she doesn't think I am pissing on her parade just for the fun of it. She has a point, but the substance of her point, in my view, is that we should not believe the banks' own assessment of their exposure to risk but should dig deeper to see how much potential loss they have disposed of through securitisation and how much they have acquired by purchasing securitised shyte.

Looked at in the round it is hard to believe that even as much as 50% still lies with the original lenders.

Anonymous said...

Excellent and interesting comments! Lola and Mark have spotted the two fundamental issues that arise from the SPVs failure to register. FatBigot unfortunately seems to be confused.

FatBigot assumes that the sale of the mortgages is merely a sale of the equitable interest. He is wrong. As he admits himself: it does all depend on what the securitisation agreements provide - and the securitisation agreements provide for a 'True Sale'. A True Sale means a transfer of the legal title. A reading of any securitisation prospectus filed at the UK Listing Authority will confirm transfer of legal title.

The prospectus will also confirm that the bank and the SPV have contracted intentionally to suppressed and conceal the information from the borrower and H.M. Land Registry. The Land Registration Act s.123 provides that it is a criminal offence to intentionally suppress and conceal information from transfer of legal title from H.M. Land Registry.

No doubt FatBigot will find this hard to believe but the facts are there - just read a securitisation prospectus.

Upshot is, as Mark recognises, banks are overstating assets and losses and as Lola recognises, if this concealment became transparent to the public at large, it would be interesting as Lola says, "in the same way that the assault on the penalty charges levied by banks worked": the borrower would really be able to challenge the abuses suffered at the hand of the SPVs.

FatBigot, please do continue to rain on my parade as it makes interesting reading and the debate could reveal and cure other confusions. Carmel

Anonymous said...

Anonymous/Carmel is mistaken and the FB is utterly and entirely correct. Anyone who drafted a securitisation agreement requiring re-registration of the mortgage would be led outside and shot. Banks aim to get rid of the cashflows arising out of the original advance in securitising their assets; that is all.

TheFatBigot said...

I feel a Thatcher moment coming on ... "I'm enjoying this".

When the last house price crash occurred lots of litigation ensued. I was involved in some of it, it paid for FatBigot Towers and a new motor car (now, sadly, in the great scrapyard in the sky, or more probably in Nigeria).

The securitisation argument was tried back then, 15 or so years ago. It arose in two contexts.

Individuals facing repossession claims argued that their mortgage had been sold by the bank and that the bank had no right to make a claim. The argument failed because the bank was the registered chargee and, therefore, had the right to make the claim.

Some judges required disclosure of the securitisation contracts to see whether the legal title to the charge had been transferred. None was persuaded that the contract had that effect.

The other way it was tried was in claims made by banks and secondary lenders again solicitor and valuers. In essence the claims tried to pass some of the losses onto the solicitors who undertook the initial conveyancing and those who gave valuations on which the lenders relied when making loans (needless to say, in many cases it was established that they did not rely on the valuation at all).

Many claims succeeded to some extent, many more failed completely. A common argument by defendants was that the lender had no right to sue because it had sold the debt. Some judges required securitisation contracts to be disclosed so that the argument could be tested. Not once, as far as I know, did the court decide that the securitisation contract effected a transfer of legal ownership of a charge.

That is not to say it couldn't happen, but it would involve quite extraordinary incompetence for such a contract to be drafted in such a way that legal ownership was transferred.

It's quite frightening to think that those cases were as much as 15 years ago, they seem like ... sorry, I'm getting into old fart mode now.

Mark Wadsworth said...

TFB, thanks for anecdotal (yes it is clear to me that judges would ignore minor details like this), but I think that what this seems like is that you are talking about pre-LRA 2002 cases.

Anonymous said...

From Carmel: Hi FatBigot despite all your diatribe, Mark has has trumped you in one sentence.

It is the law that the SPVs register their legal title. If FatBigot wants to play the ruse of the maintaining that there was a transfer of the equitable interest only, fine - then the SPV issuer has misrepresented the facts to the Investors, so you have a fraudulent misrepresentation issue in the prospectus - or, if you insist that the prospectus is true then you have a criminal concealment from the Land Registry.

As Anon asserts, if you had created the documents to be entirely lawful, you would have been taken outside and shot. So hey ho, the lawyers are quite happy to break the law in favour of their powerful clients.

The best bit for you FatBigot is that you can use this to buy another FatBigot Towers. Crime does pay, especially for the lawyers.

booby said...

What many are missing in relation to repossessions is that the managers of these vehicles cannot amend the terms. In other words the defaulting borrower cannot expect any help in reconstructing the debt to make it affordable. Regrettably this has been a major plank of this governments plan to help borrowers & it won't work

Also this same situation has been exposed in America where it's now being used by lawyers to stop thousands of repossessions

Anonymous said...

Quite right booby. It is about time that our courts listened to the many borrowers who are in court with no legal representation (because they can't afford to pay for both the claimant's representation and their own). It's about time our courts applied the rule of law to stop the SPVs abusing the borrowers. The only reason the SPVs have got away with it is because the borrowers can't assert their legal rights.

TheFatBigot said...

I thought I'd come back to see if there were any further comments on this interesting topic and now feel obliged to throw in another contribution.

I don't know whether anyone is suggesting with any seriousness that the definition of legal title to a legal charge changed with the 2002 Act coming into force. If they are, so be it, there's nothing I can do about that. The 2002 Act makes no substantive change to the position under the 1925 Act. Legal title to a legal charge had to be registered then and it has to be registered now, lesser interests did not then and don't now (subject to certain exceptions, none of which affect the position under a securitisation agreement which does not transfer legal title).

The change of subject to the contents of prospectuses is all very interesting but has nothing to do with the original argument that banks should not still be registered as legal owners of legal charges.

If prospectuses were misleading and people were thereby induced into contracts, those contracts will be voidable and those who were misled might be able to claim damages as compensation for losses they have suffered. They will not, however, be able to claim for losses caused by a fall in the housing market; that has been the law since the House of Lords decision in the SAAMCO case.

In Carmel's final offering (although, somehow, I doubt it is a final offering), we have just entered la-la-land with suggestions of SPVs "abusing the borrowers".

Borrowers borrowed money. If they cannot repay it they still owe it. They still owe it to the lender because that is the company with which they have a contract.

Even if the lender has lost the charge through an unimaginably incompetently drafted securitisation agreement, it is entitled to sue for the money. On getting a judgment for the money it is entitled to enforce that judgment. There are various means of enforcement including charging orders which are essentially the same as legal charges, although they generally take longer to enforce and cause greater legal costs to be incurred and the longer it takes the more interest is racked-up on the loan and the more the value of the house falls. At the end of the day all that additional loss is on the borrower because he has not paid his debt.

If you owe the money, you owe the money. No one is abused by one possible means of enforcement being assigned to another company. If you are a defaulting borrower and are aggrieved by the fact that the company you owe money to has assigned the security it holds over your property to someone else, apply for the purchaser of the securitisation contract to be added as a Claimant when you are sued. That way you will guarantee to be evicted at the earliest possible date and you will add to the legal costs you have to pay.

It's pure la-la-land.

Anonymous said...

Good to have you back FatBigot. There seems to be a point of consensus which is, that nobody is suggesting that the definition of legal title has change. Good. We're on the same page. We also both agree that when a legal title is transferred, the transferee MUST register its proprietorship at the Land Registry. Good, again we're on the same page.

The prospectuses tell the investors that there the SPV bought the mortgages under a True Sale and also tells the investors that the SPV has the RIGHT and ENTITLEMENT to register its legal ownership at the Land Registry. Does that sound like a legal title transfer to you?

The prospectuses also tells the investors that the bank (i.e. mortgage seller) and the SPV (i.e. the mortgage buyer) have NO INTENTION of informing the Land Registry or the borrowers of the sale/assignment/transfer. Does that sound like suppression of information to the Land Registry?

Consequently, the bank has passed legal title to the SPV and accordingly, the SPVs failure to register is a criminal offence.

Therefore we agree. Legal title has passed to the SPV and the SPV should be registered.

So the issue is, that the banks are NOT in privity of contract with the borrower. The SPV has paid the bank in full for the mortgage contract and therefore, at law, the bank has suffered no loss, and (as you know), the bank has NO LEGAL STANDING to bring claim against the borrower.

Thus, the banks abuse the Land Register knowing that they are falsely registered and abuse the courts by claiming they are entitled to a possession order when they are not.

Moreover, borrowers can pay their mortgages. What they can't pay is the excessive overcharging at the hands of the SPVs. The issue here is, that the borrower does not know who is performing the lender's obligations, does not know how they are being abused, but do know that something is dreadfully wrong.

It seems you may still living in the 1990's and have yet to update to the 21st century.

The concealment of the SPVs has allowed them to abuse the borrowers with impunity - they are hiding in the woodwork. Let them crawl out from under their rock (in the tax have) and ask the court for their repossession order - let's have the documents out in the open so that the borrowers can see the illegal non-contractual demands for interest that they force on borrowers (i.e. interest that is not contractually payable) and then use then use these inflated charges to falsely claim that the borrowers are in default. Let the courts see that the SPVs have no intention of honouring their contractual obligation to lend for the 25 year term. Let the court see that the SPV have designed in the borrower's certain default so that the SPV can repossess.

And the SPVs do want to repossess because the redemption clauses on the Notes have been triggered so the SPVs need to liquidate the borrowers to pay the investors. That is why there is so much determination to repossess - it has nothing to do with the allegedly "bad borrowers" who allegedly "don't pay".

Come into the 21st Century FatBigot and see what the SPVs are doing to the good hardworking families in this country all in the name of greed.

I think even you may concede that there are obligations and duties from both contracting parties. Why then do you seem to allude that it is only the borrower that has obligations and that it is only the borrower who is in default of contract. Do you blindly rule out the possibility that it is the SPV that in in contractual default. Oh yes, maybe you do, because you advocate for the SPVs.

If being in la-la land means that I recognise (1) the SPVs breaches of contract (2) and their criminal failure to register at the LR and (3) the banks false claims to the courts when they know they have no legal right or standing to a possession order then, fine; and perhaps you don't feel it is unjust exotrt and demand non-contractual sums of money from borrowers and then dress it up as alleged arrears, maybe you don't think it unjust to conceal the truth from the courts and dupe the judges into a possession order and maybe you don't feel it is unjust to then throw hard working honest people in this country out of their homes in the name of greed.

Hey ho, FatBigot - can you feel another FatBigot Towers coming to you out of all this injustice? After all, as you rightly point out, it is the borrowers that will foot the bill for your advocacy for the SPVs. Sleep well.

Anonymous said...

"Methinks confusion reigneth."

It certainly does in The Fat Bigots head. You rock on with your illuions my Fat Bigotted Friend...

booby said...

So TFB you don't think Wilson v County AND the Sec of State HoL applies

TheFatBigot said...

Oh dear, oh dear, we go from la-la-land to a massive fraudulent conspiracy.

I'm not going to bother repeating what I have said above about securitisation agreements, either they transfer legal title from Bank X to Company Y, or they don't. I think it highly unlikely that they do, but it is always a possibility that they were drafted with extraordinary incompetence (something no court has yet been able to unearth despite examining many of these contracts).

Prospectuses issued by Company Y are relevant only to their contract with their investors. They do not define the securisitation agreements. In any event a beneficial assignment coupled with an unqualified option to call for a legal assignment is consistent with the words used "true sale" and "right and entitlement to register". I would expect that to be the true position in law.

And while we're at it, failure to register a charge as required by the LRA is not, as far as I am aware, a criminal offence.

As for unlawful claims for interest being made by Company Y against the borrower, I have absolutely no idea what you mean. If any such claims are being made the borrower has an easy defence because he loan agreement defines his payment obligations. Incidentally, after the loan agreement is made and the capital is advanced the lender has no further unperformed obligations towards the borrower, at that stage it is not a two-way street as you suggest. The lender has done what he is obliged to do, if you want it in technical legal jargon the lender is under no executory primary obligations, whereas the borrower's have just begun.

And to Mr Booby's question, I can't see that the Wilson case (or s127 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which Wilson dealt with) has any application. Wilson deals with situations in which a failure to include all necessary terms in a loan agreement itself can prevent the lender (or his assignee) from enforcing the loan. As I understand it, Miss Carmel's point is about alleged deficiencies in the way securitisation contracts are dealt with; those contracts come along after the loan agreement is made and the borrower is not a party to them so they fall outside the situation in Wilson. In any event, if my recollection is correct, few if any home-purchase loans would fall within s127 because the amount advanced exceeds the financial limits under the CCA. Something also tells me loans secured by charges fall outside the types of agreement to which s127 applies, but I can't be bothered to look it up.

And, sadly, there will be no new FatBigot Towers coming from any of this, I retired years ago. Have a nice weekend.

booby said...

TFB I refer to Wilson because it makes a clear reference to their having to be compliance for an agreement to be enforceable.

RE criminal conspiracy. If you don't think they exist within the banking community then your gonna be in for a shock quite soon

TheFatBigot said...

That is true, Mr Booby, it's all a matter of what has to be complied with and why.

S127 of CCA 1974 (I don't know whether CCA 2006 changed this) was a very unusual provision because it made the whole loan agreement unenforceable if the lender didn't get the paperwork right. No only was interest not recoverable but the capital sum advanced could not be recovered and the borrower got a nice Christmas present.

But s127 only applied to certain types of credit agreement and only where the amount of credit did not exceed the limit set under the CCA (originally £5,000, increased over time to £25,000 and now, I believe,
abolished). Not only that, but it was only certain closely defined errors with paperwork that rendered the whole agreement unenforceable.

My recollection is that loans secured by legal charges fell outside s127 completely, but in any event almost all home-purchase loans were above the CCA's financial limit so they wouldn't be caught anyway.

The Wilson case concerned a small loan made by a pawnbroker. It was within the financial limits of the Act and the type of loan made was caught by the special provisions about documentation that allowed s127 to kick-in.

As for criminal conspiracy, of course it can arise in every field of commerce. I just can't see how Bank X (the original lender) and Company Y (the securitisation company) can conspire unlawfully to the detriment of the borrower under a normal home-purchase loan.

The borrower's obligations are fixed by the loan contract. Whether the benefit of that contract is transferred from Bank X to Company Y or not, the borrower's obligations remain the same.

For example, a loan agreement saying the interest payable is 1% above Bank X's Base Rate defines how much the borrower has to pay. If Bank X assigns that contract to Company Y, the interest payable by the borrower is still 1% above Bank X's Base Rate. It is not necessary for Bank X to still be a party to the contract for an increase (or decrease)in its base rate to require the borrower to pay more (or less).

Anonymous said...

Hi FatBigot, again there is some consensus in your comments and some dissent.

The first point of consensus is: the borrower’s obligations are fixed by the loan contract...the borrower’s obligations remain the same. Agreed. However, by your own admission you have “as for unlawful claims of interest being made against the borrower...[you] have absolutely no idea”. Therefore, you readily admit that you do not know the facts and therefore cannot say whether borrowers are unlawfully charged (which they are).

Nonetheless, you go on to say that the borrower would have an easy defence. In theory yes, the borrower does have an easy defence – but, the borrower is more often than not unrepresented, overwhelmed with court process and in any event, has no knowledge of the SPV’s existence and therefore no access to the evidence of the SPV’s interest rate setting policies. So there is the practical disadvantage of being unable to launch an effective defence and an evidential disadvantage of being able to prove the unlawful charging. So in practical terms the defence exists in theory, but the reality is that it is virtually impossible to effectively use the defence. Hence, the SPVs get away with it through concealment of its existence and the SPVs concealment of material and relevant documents.

Another point of consensus is: you assert that, it is not a criminal offence for failure to register a charge, “as far as you are aware”. On that point, as you seem to be unaware, you may find it helpful to be informed (again) that it is a criminal offence to suppress and conceal information from the Land Registry, s.123 LRA 2002. It is a legal requirement that transfer of a charge is registered, s.27 LRA 2002. The prospectuses state that the mortgage seller and buyer agree not to register the buyer’s (SPV’s) title. Therefore, they have contractually and intentionally agreed to suppress and conceal the information from the Land Registry. They have agreed not to comply with s.27 and agreed not to inform the Land Registry of the transfer. Hence, criminal offence has been committed.

Points of dissent: You state that in technical legal jargon, the lender is under no executory primary obligations whereas the borrower’s have just begun. Actually, the lender’s primary obligation is to make the advance and in consideration thereof, the borrower’s primary obligation is to convey the Deed of Mortgage. The primary obligation of both parties is at that point, fulfilled. Thereafter, the borrower and the lender are both still under executory obligations. For example, the lender will “perform” the calculation of interest in accordance with the contract and the borrower will pay such interest. A contract is always a two-way street. Where the lender fails to calculate interest in accordance with the contractual provisions, and in fact unlawfully increases the borrower’s contractual obligations, the lender has not performed its obligations in accordance with the contractual provisions. Perhaps this is the source of your confusion. You believe that lenders have no contractual obligations following the advance. Again, by your own admission, if a loan agreement states that the interest payable is 1% above Bank X Base Rate, then that is the contractual amount payable – so if the lender charges such borrower 2% above Bank X Base Rate, then the lender is in breach of contract and is overcharging. If lenders have overcharged in this manner (which they have) they are unlawfully overcharging. You see, FatBigot, the lenders do have on-going executor obligations.

You seem to believe that a borrower’s contract is irrelevant to the securitisation process because, you state: the securitisation contracts happen after the loan contract. That is naive. The borrower’s contracts are of central importance to the SPV because the borrower is the SPV’s only source of income. Therefore, the SPV is tempted to increase its income through its interest rate setting policies and thereby tempted to overcharge (a temptation to which they readily accede). Therefore, as it is the SPV that is performing the lender’s executor obligations under the contract, you can see that the SPV’s performance of its contractual and legal duties is of some concern to borrowers. The concealment of the SPV from the borrower (through its failure to comply with s.27 LRA 2002) therefore does cause harm to the borrower. The borrower cannot defend himself against the invisible enemy.

With regard to your comments on the Wilson case, you will find that the CCA 1974 section was s.137 and not s.127. Dependent on the factual circumstances of particular mortgages, the Wilson case may be applicable to mortgage borrowers.

You attempt to quash the debate through your use of the phrase “criminal conspiracy” – as you state yourself, conspiracy can arise in every field of commerce and based on your own premise, therefore, can arise in the field of securitisation.

Finally, ‘put-down’ style comments such as, references to “la-la land” and “criminal conspiracy” is unhelpful and is a ruse to distract from the pertinent points. However, if you feel it necessary to use such tactics, have you considered that it may also be construed as evidencing the weakness of your argument? Your comments are welcomed and valuable so it would be helpful to focus on facts and law. With kindest regards, Carmel.

booby said...

Have a number of matters in relation to this subject & been trying to locate Carmel without success

Mark Wadsworth said...

Booby, send me an email and I will forward it to her.

booby said...

Mark have tried without success

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry Carmel, TheFatBigot is absolutely correct. I read your submission to the Select Committee. I was at your law firm, Sidleys for years and predated your time there. In fact I did work for the co-heads of the group, Cathy Kaplan and Ed Fine. You seem to imply you have some additional credibility because you worked on securitisation transactions for a year, but any competent securitisation lawyer would see that your submission exhibits fundamental misunderstanding of how securitisation works. You do make some fair points with regard to interest rate setting and the like etc., but your point in re: failing to register is a criminal offence blah blah blah, is so ludicrous that I have to question the educational standards at Columbia Law. It's an argument, and as lawyers we make arguments, but there are good argument and bad arguments-this is a terrible argument. Securitisation and its workings are well established and the framework has been in place for years, in fact the Bank of England is accepting securitised collateral as part of its repo operations and currently owns over £250 billion in mortgage backed bands. If you believe there will be prosecutions on account of failure to register, you are completely out of your mind. And I'm afraid that this argument gives false hope to borrowers that are having trouble making payments on their mortgages (in fact, some mistakenly seem to think this may be grounds to rescind the mortgage contract or stem the foreclosure process). There certainly are various grounds that a borrower can argue and some judges may be receptive to those arguments, but this is not one of them. It doesn't pass the smell test. I won't address all your points. I'm not here to get into a multi-page long argument, so this will be my only post. All I will say, is that this argument does not and will not hold water even in a Kangaroo Court.

booby said...

Some of those who disagree with Carmel seem intent on peppering their argument with personal insults. I think that says more about them & THEIR argument than it does about Carmel's

My own view is that Carmel's argument has merit & hopefully will be tested very soon

Anonymous said...

I have read this piece including the comments with great interest. Surely one of the points that has to be made clear is that if the securitisation of a land purchase loan takes please via an SPV and as has been claimed that securitisation only represents an equitable assignment to the SPV then both the SPV and the original lender must be the ones to bring a claim for repossession against the borrower. If the assignment is in fact absolute then only the SPV can make a claim for repossession against the borrower. I doubt the SPV would surface to make such a claim in either situation.

Anonymous said...

The SPV delegates virtually ALL of its responsibilities to 3rd parties. The SPV is a shell company that must be bankruptcy remote, in order to ensure it IS bankruptcy remote, it's duties are limited to a very specific narrow band of activities. The SPV would NEVER go in to court to enforce a mortgage, NEVER. This is the case as securitisations are structured in ALL jurisdictions. The SPV is composed of a few directors, and that's it. It doesn't have premises, employees, or any of the like. Consequently, anything related to the administration of the mortgages or cash management or other necessary activities in a securitisation are handled by third parties, INCLUDING enforcement of the mortgage. Proving that the SPV is the owner of the mortgage is a straightforward thing to do.

Anonymous said...

Sadly, it would appear that to much emphasis has been placed upon the evidence submitted by Ms Butler.

Her evidence was submitted as a consumer and as a taxpayer. It was not submitted in any form of a professional capacity.

I have read the arguments for and against and it would appear that certain posters are using smoke and mirrors.

I totally agree with TFB. I say this because in her above posts Ms Butler has quoted the prospectus, out of context. This in itself highlights a major flaw in her perceived argument.

The prospectus actually states (and please correct me, if I am wrong Ms Butler)that the legal title will not automatically be transferred. In a similar vain to s.136 of the Law of Property Act 1925, the prospectus confirms that a restriction of a notice being given to the borrower before this can occur.

I am able to quote prospectus if required.

Unless I am very much mistaken, which does happen, a notice of any kind has not been given to the borrow.

Therefore, the prospectus that you place so much faith, counters your own argument. It also confirms that investors have not been misled.

However, I am sure you will not permit this in anyway to impact upon your declaration that the world is wrong and Ms Bulter is right.

As demonstrated by your former colleague, this is cleary not the case.

I apologise if this post is worded strongly. I am concerned that the capacity that Ms Bulter made her submission and suggested implications of securitisation will lead many to feel that they have a defense against their homes being repossessedd.

When in reality, this is not a defense. I sincerely hope that this does result in people mistakenly relying upon this misunderstanding, instead of investigating over avenues to save this homes.

Anonymous said...

The real question that has not been asked, is in relation to Carmel Butler's motives in firstly making this submission and secondly ensuring that it is discussed on a number of different websites including consumer help forums.

As Mark has stated:

"Carmel B Butler has sent me"

Could you please confirm if your evidence was submitted from an independent view point or from a potentially biased view point, which has not been disclosed.

Voice of Reason said...

The evidence of Carmel Butler is incomplete.

It would appear that the subject matter of a lender taking possession of a property, when a mortgage has been securitised has previously been subject to a judgement made in the Court of Appeal.

The questions raised by Carmel Butler have already been answered.

I wonder why, Carmel Butler did not make reference to this highly relevant legal proceedings.

Please find below a link to the Court case that demonstrates that at best the evidence provided by Carmel Bulter is flawed.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2005/760.html&query="Mortgage+Securitisation"&method=boolean

Reality Check said...

I would like to take this opportunity to quote Miss Carmel Butler if I may:

"A reading of any securitisation prospectus filed at the UK Listing Authority will confirm transfer of legal title."

Any securitisation prospectus will confirm transfer of legal title.

This would appear to be an assumption that is not supported by evidence. As a legal professional, I would have anticipated that Miss Carmel Butler would have appreciated the importance of evidence to build any case.

I consider that a review of the evidence, on which Miss Carmel Butler relies upon is warrented to establish the truth.

http://www.investors.rbs.com/downloads/ARMF2%20_FINAL%20BLACK%20OC.pdf

"The sale by the
Seller to the Issuer on the Closing Date of each Loan in the Initial Portfolio which is secured by a mortgage over a property located in
England, Wales or Scotland will be given effect by (a) as regards
Loans that are secured by a Mortgage over a property located in
England and Wales, an equitable assignment"

"The sale by the Seller to the Issuer of the Loans in the Initial Portfolio will be given effect by (a) as regards English Loans, an equitable assignment"

http://www.investorrelations.lloydstsb.com/media/pdf_irmc/ir/2006/2006Nov_LTSB_Arkle_Series1_Prospectus.pdf

"Each sale of English loans and their respective related security to the mortgages trustee will be made by way of equitable assignment."

The above evidence, clearly contradicts the incorrect assumptions made by Miss Carmel Butler.

The above evidence, clearly confirms that it is only the equitable title that is transfered and not the legal title.

Therefore it is straight forward to conclude that the legal title holder is in fact the original lender (mortgage provider).

Miss Carmel Butler's reliance upon the introduction of the LRA 2002 is also sadly misplaced.

As the lender (mortgage provider) is the mortgagee, contrary to previously detailed incorrect assumptions the LRA 2002 confirms that as the mortgagee, the lender is entitled to be registered.

Please see s.131 (2.b)of the LRA 2002.

It would appear the assumptions made by Miss Carmel Butler have not been made on actual evidence or upon the applicable legislation.

RealityCheck said...

It would appear that the evidence submitted to the House of Commons in relation to the implications of securitisation, with regard to the registration of the lender, is based upon assumption and misunderstanding.
As a qualified lawyer (in America and not Great Britain), I expect Ms Butler to appreciate the importance and significance of evidence in any legal argument. However, it would appear that evidence has been ignored and legislation misunderstood.
If I may quote from Ms Carmel Butler, her assumption and misunderstanding will become apparent.
“A reading of any securitisation prospectus filed at the UK Listing Authority will confirm transfer of legal title.”
However, to support this statement we are not presented with any evidence, we are therefore totally reliant upon any quote Ms Butler, cares to provide. To establish the validity (if any) of the conclusions contained with the evidence submitted to the House of Commons, we need to review the evidence.
Unlike Ms Butler, I am prepared to present my evidence, which consists of the very securitisation prospectuses that have previously been mentioned by Ms Butler.
http://www.rns-pdf.londonstockexchange.com/rns/5513b_-2007-8-3.pdf
“The English mortgage loans and their related security will be assigned by the seller to the mortgages trustee by way of an English law equitable assignment.”

“the seller will make an equitable assignment of the relevant mortgage loans and related security to the mortgages trustee”

“The sale to the mortgages trustee of the mortgage loans together with their related security will take effect in equity only and the mortgages trustee will not apply to the Land Registry or the Land Charges Registry to register or record its equitable interest in the mortgages.”

These extracts confirm that equitable and not absolute assignment has taken place. Therefore, the legal title will remain with the Lender. I am at a loss, how any other conclusion can be reached.

However, this does not appear to have deterred Ms Butler. In addition to the securitisation prospectus, which does not confirm the transfer of legal title, Ms Butler bases her argument upon the implementation of the Land Registration Act 2002. However, her reliance upon this legislation is equally flawed as her reliance upon the securitisation prospectus.

The original lender and legal title holder is the mortgagee. S.131 (2b) of the LRA 2002, confirms that the mortgagee is entitled to be registered as the proprietor.

I freely concede that the submission to the House of Commons has been delivered in a very professional manner. However, as evidenced above, the professionalism of the way in which the submission was delivered is not reflected by the lack of professionalism in the research of this topic matter and more importantly the incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings of Ms Butler.

Regretfully due to potential (and incorrectly assumed) implications of Ms Butler’s submission to the House of Commons, it would appear that less informed individuals have interpreted this argument, as a legal defence to repossession and in some cases a possible way to evade repayment of their mortgage.

I trust Ms Butler fully appreciates the ramifications of her submission and her subsequent events to publicises her submission on various consumer websites.

Anonymous said...

A (a bank) agrees to lend B (an individual) an amount of money to purchase a house on the condition that B repays that amount over a fixed period inclusive of interest – if B falls behind with those payments to A then A enforces a charge against the property and a forced sale of that property can be the result.

This is the fundamental basis of a mortgage contract as the average layman understands it.

A decides to sell their interest in the above contract to C (a SPV) and this is done by way of equitable assignment. B is now automatically (and without their knowledge) contracted into a repayment schedule with C however C does not have the right to sue B should there be a breach of this contract – this would require absolute assignment from A to C of the rights and duties under the original contract.

B falls behind with the monthly payments that were being made to A (A now acting as collection agents for C).

A accuses B of breach of contract and enforces the charge against the property through the courts and this results in repossession/forced sale.

How can B be guilty of breach of contract between A and B when a contract between the parties no longer exists? A has assigned away their right to receive payment from B – B are actually required to make payments to C but they are unaware of this change in circumstances because they were not notified of the equitable assignment.

Remember that the terms of the original contract were between A and B.

B has actually breached a contract that now exists in theory between B and C but of course this isn’t possible because no contract actually exists whereby B agreed to pay C any monthly payments at all.

A have no more right to sue B for breach of contract than C does because A screwed up the contract by virtue of securitisation.

Anonymous said...

Well it appears that the Treasury Committee in the report agree with Carmel & in particular that the law IS being broken & have called on the FSA to do it's duty by enforcing it as they feel, probably correctly, that once one bank has been punished others will be more inclined to follow the letter of the law

Reality Check said...

Dear Anonymous 14 April 2009,

Would you please be so kind as to post a link to any form of decision or findings of the Treasury Committee, that specifically states that the legal title is perfected and transferred to an SPV as part of securitisiation.

Evidence !! Evidence !!!

Where is the evidence ?

Roony said...

I've found all explanations on securitisation, including Carmel Butlers, misses out on the simple fact, having checked everything from the mcob to the LRA

I understand the securitisation process, but i think there's a CRUCIAL difference in how securitisation occurrs in the U.S.A & over here, that is the gap in the LRA

This gap is what allows the original mortgage company to keep the original documents, whereas in the U.S the original mortgage contract & the mortgage deed are sold to the spv,
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is the main difference ...

The main difference is, I've actually tested this, having known both GE Money Mortgages & Abbey, were securitised mortgages, (as their own documents state the property is registered with another company, & Abbey openly states they securitise & offers the prospectus on their website)

But they both were able to produce the original mortgage contract, & mortgage deed, at the application hearing

This is an important part of the discussion, which i feel could do with being addressed, ie, what are the technicalities & status of the documents involved in the securitisation process

My question is, & i myself & many others would appreciate a reply to


How can a company transfer a True Sale to a SPV, that is the mortgage contract & the mortgage deed, to another company, while keeping the originals? Dont they have to sell the original contracts including the deed over to the transferee?

Also just do they create a new mortgage contract & a new mortgage deed when the true sale occurs & transferred to the spv

This is the crucial question, i feel which causes alot of confusion


I understand the gap in registering the transferee in the land register, but i dont understand how the mortgage company retains the original documents even when theyve been sold

Unless theres collusion between the two companies, & the company keeps the original mortgage contract & deed, while it creates a new mortgage contract & deed for the transfer to the spv

This is an important part of the discussion, which i feel could do with being addressed, ie, what are the technicalities & status of the documents involved in the securitisation process,


If you're to understand the securitisation process correctly how the documentation is transferred is a crucial part of the process


thanks

roony said...

hi,

I thought i'd simplify my question, as my original turned out longer then i thought, in not so many words

Basically if the original mortgage company has the original mortgage contract, & the original mortgage deed.
What documents do they transfer to the new company SPV?

Basically what is the actual paperwork generated to allow them to sell the mortgage onto a new company? If they dont pass on the original mortgage contract & deed?

If we were to understand the paperwork & documentation involved, in the actual process, then perhaps we can avoid the speculation & simply trace the actual process

eyeonfraud said...

Well said Roony

It's time for facts and evidence, and to move away from speculation. One VITAL document that would clear this up is the sale agreement between the SPV and the Lender.

Anonymous said...

Is it not the SPV that transfers security to the mortgage trustee? If so wouldn't the SPV need to have legal ownership before that can take place? Surely it cannot be that both the originator and the SPV can have full legal title?

Carmel said...

There are a number of “anonymous” comments which appear to demand a reply. Give that there are a substantial number of comments this post will be a bit longer than the conventional post as I will endeavour to respond to all the comments and criticisms. But first, it is worth appreciating that there are always two sides of the story and accordingly, there will be advocates both for and against. I make no secret of the fact that I advocate for the powerless against the powerful. Institutions such as banks and international law firms etc., will always be powerful and use that power against the consumer often abusively and oppressively.

That said, I will reply to all comments:

Mr Anonymous on 17th March at 09.36 states that he worked at Sidley’s with Cathy Kaplan and Ed Fine and accuses me of seeking to imply that I have credibility for having worked at Sidley. In response I would state: that his assertion is based on the assumption that Sidley Austin are creditable in the first place. I do not share that assumption. The only and objective reason for the inclusion of Sidley Austin’s name the introductory paragraph in the evidence submitted to the Treasury Committed was because the rules for the submission of evidence REQUIRE an introductory paragraph. (See the Treasury Committee web-site where it states that your evidence must include “a brief introduction about you”). It was not intended that anyone should assume that I intended to imply that the name Sidley Austin had any credibility, the point to be made was that I had relevant experience and knowledge of the securitisation structures.

It is an uncontroversial fact that Sidley Austin work to support their powerful clients, i.e. the SPV’s and the banks, and thus, there was and is, no suggestion that Sidley Austin would have any regard to the interests of consumers who are not their clients.

Secondly, contrary to your suggestion that I am “out of my mind”, I do not believe that there will be prosecutions on account of the SPV’s failure to register their legal title and therefore, you can rest assured of my mental health. You will note that the blog is entitled “Are Securitisation companies above the law”?. You have inadvertently answered your own assertion. The answer is “Yes”, I do believe that the SPVs are above the law and accordingly, I do not believe that there will be any prosecutions because the authorities will not prosecute the rich and powerful.

Finally, it is interesting that you “question the educational standards at Columbia Law”. It is of course, your free speech right and entitlement to question and cast aspersions on the educational standards of that institution.

Mr/Mrs Anonymous on 4 April 2009 at 11.49 questions my motivations. It is firstly noted that Anonymous (rather hypocritically) has: (1) not declared his/her motivations for attacking my right to advocate for the consumer, (2) not declared this/her potentially biased view point and (3) did not had the courage to state his/her name to such demand but cowardly does so in anonymity. And yet Mr Anonymous demands a declaration of my motivations. Are we not entitled to know who is making such demands and what their motivation is for making such demands or, could it be that I may have touched a raw nerve to attract such negative attacks from someone who has a vested interest in concealing the truth? Such attacks may be construed as adding weight to the truth of my arguments.

Nonetheless, I have already declared and make no secret of my motivation which is, like many other law abiding citizens of this country: a natural abhorrence for injustice and abuse of power. If Mr Anonymous of 4 April had read my evidence to the Treasury Committee they would know that I expressly declared that I too have been subjected to a securitisation like the vast majority of other consumers and taxpayers in this country. Therefore, they should not need to ask my motivation. The practical reality of the greed of financial institutions who have made fortunes from securitisations is that they have done so at a huge cost to the many families who suffer and will be destroyed through the loss of their homes. It is my right to assert my disgust for the abuse of power and to stand up and state what I know (and firmly believe) is true. It may be that the truth is unpalatable for those with a keen interest in maintaining their privileged positions of power and the vast fortunes made from securitisation, but it is nonetheless the truthful reality for consumers that it is they who are oppressed and abused through this system. As per my evidence to the Treasury Committee, repossession are occurring not because of allegedly “bad borrowers” they are occurring because the SPVs want their cash now rather than waiting the contractual 25 year term of the mortgage.

With respect to the query over the phrase “Carmel B. Butler has sent me”, that is true. I did send the brief summary to Mark: I sent Mark Wadsworth the brief summary because after Mark Wadsworth had read the evidence, he specifically asked me if I would write a brief summary and send it to him as a blog topic. I acceded to Mark’s request. I make no apology for Mark having read the Treasury Committee evidence and making such request of me, and I make no apology for acceding to Mark’s request for a summary.

As for the allegedly, Voice of Reason’s comment on 4 April 2009 at 13.00 who asserts that my evidence is incomplete because I did not make reference to a particular case, I wonder at what point in the evidence the Voice of Reason would have considered it appropriate to mention that case? Voice of Reason does not say why he/she believes it is relevant to the factual evidence that was submitted. Has Voice of Reason confused the Treasury Committee with a court of law? It appears absurd to randomly pick one case and complain that I did not mention that case. There is plenty more to be said on this topic and lots of other information which, it could be argued could have been included.

Then there is “Reality Check” who appears to be suffering the screaming ab-dabs and screams for Evidence! on 14 April 2009 at 20.03. He/she wants to know where the Treasury Committee has ever made a finding of fact that the SPVs legal title as been “perfected”.

Oh here we go again, another lawyer with smoke and mirrors. Note that Reality Check has carefully chosen to use the word “perfected”. You see, the lay person would not necessarily know about the legal concepts of a security interest that is “attached” and a security interest that is “perfected”. So Reality Check it’s time for you to have a reality check. As a lawyer that is playing semantics – you know that the SPVs legal right and title ATTACHES to the legal title as soon as the contract of sale/purchase has been completed.

For the lay person, it is exactly the same for you e.g. on the day that you bought your home, you were the legal owner of your new home even though your name on that day was not on the Land Registry as the owner. Nonetheless, your LEGAL right ATTACHED to the legal title of the property. In order to PERFECT your legal title, you must inform the LR and register yourself as the legal owner at the Land Registry.

Likewise, when the SPVs purchased the mortgages, the SPVs legal interest ATTACHED to the legal title of the mortgages. Therefore, the SPV is legally obligated to inform the LR to PERFECT its title. This is because the LRA 2002 mandates that where there has been a transfer of the legal title you must “perfect” that legal title by registering at the LR. Reality Check knows that the issue here is that the SPV is legally obligated under the LRA 2002 to PERFECT its legal title and Reality Check also knows that the SPVs deliberately and intentionally do not PERFECT its legal title which means they have not registered their legal title and therefore have failed to comply with the LRA 2002 s.27 and the SPV has violated s.123.

Nonetheless, Reality Check screams for evidence that he/she already knows doesn’t exists because he/she knows that the SPV has not “perfected” its legal ownership by virtue of their criminal violation of s.27 and s.123. That is the issue.

Moreover, there is unequivocal evidence that the SPV does own the legal title and should perfect its legal title at the Land Registry (i.e. register itself as the legal owner in accordance with law). The SPV creates and grants a Trustee a Legal Charge over their mortgage assets. This legal charge is filed at Companies House under a Form 395 filing. Granting and creating this legal charge is an exercise of the legal powers that only the legal owner is entitled to exercise. If, as Reality Check would have it, the SPV does not own the legal title and therefore does not have the legal power to create a legal charge over the mortgages – then fine – the whole of the SPVs securitisation is ILLEGAL and the SPVs grant of a legal charge over the mortgages is unlawful. Have it any way you want Reality Check, either the SPV has broken the law under the LRA 2002 s.27 and s.123 OR, the SPV has illegally created and granted a legal charge over the mortgages when it had no legal powers to do so. You pick which one! Either way, there is unlawful conduct.

In conclusion, it seems that there are persons from Sidley Austin that are anonymously posting to this blog. I confirm that I do not know Mr Anonymous of 17 March at 09.36 and it is unlikely that he can claim to have any personal knowledge of myself. However, he makes specific reference Cathy Kaplan and Ed Fine who have presumably sanctioned and agreed that Mr Anonymous may use their names. Whilst they are entitled to exercise their free speech which may include the right to attack and offend an individual, it does lead to the conclusion that where the substance of their comments and contributions are personal insults, demands and attacks, it follows that they tacitly concede that my legal argument has substance and merit. I will stand firm on my name without anonymity to argue the controversy. Do others have the same conviction of their beliefs?

Reality Check said...

Well said James

Is there one single shred of evidence that the legal title is transferred ?

Please, someone post just one shred, not matter how small.

I only ask, as I have not seen anything that actually confirms that the legal title is transferred

Anonymous said...

Anon, that's quite interesting actually. The SPV creates a sub-charge which it then sells on to investors in it's own securitization.

How can it create a sub-charge if it did not possess the full legal title, despite all the smoke and mirrors about equitable assignment?

Carmel said...

Reality Check, why are you still asking for evidence? Did you not read the penultimate paragraph of my post on 17 April? I specifically gave you evidence, or is it that you would prefer to ignore it?

And why do you care? Does it matter to you? Why do YOU so desperately cry for evidence?

booby said...

Well said Carmel I don't think there's any point in arguing with those who are determined to find you wrong no matter what

Their continual harping about the same points does not move the discussion forward one jot.......... lets move on shall we

Anonymous said...

Yes Anonymous

That I think needs some explaining. The SPV must have full legal title.

Basil said...

Re: Subcharge

Does the completed s.395 specifically mention mortgage accounts ?

Anonymous said...

In my case yes

The schedule to the s.395 form clearly states that the SPV holds 'all rights' in the mortgages "WITHOUT LIMITATION" presumably then the SPV cannot hold simply an equitable assignment. It is the true legal owner.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous 27 April at 14.17, answer YES - without limitation are the key words. Hardly an equitable assignment if there are NO LIMITS.

Basil said...

Hello Anonymous 01 May 2009 09:47

I have had the opportunity to review a number of s.395 forms. The term "Without Limitation", has no meaning without the proper the context.

I have reviewed the s.395 forms for the companies used by most mortgage providers within the UK.

However, I have todate, not come across any that specify a mortgage account number. Therefore, it is not possible to determine by reviewing the s.395 form if a specific persons mortgage has been securitised.

Contrary to you ascertain, an s.395 form does not have the magic effect of converting an equitable assignment into a legal assignment.

As has been previously posted on this blog and on a number of consumer helpsites, a notice of assignment as per s.136 of the Law of Property Act 1925, is the only documentation, that can have that effect.

roonyroo said...

That is not the process to find a link between the SPV & the original borrower

The land registration number of the property in question is registered in the SPV prospectus

The s.395 links the spv & the trustee to the prospectus

Basil & everyone else, as Carmel as rightly pointed out should note her reply in the comments above, as per the equitable vs legal title debate

There is no debate, the equity being referred to is the assumption of equity where a charge is not yet registered at the Land registry.

I'll repeat this again, the equity referred to in the SPV & the trustee & vis a vis the lender is the assumption of equity, if a charge is unregistered at the land registry


A charge is assumed to be an equity, if it is not confirmed & registered at the land registry

I'm assuming people like Basil, are deliberately avoiding the issue of a sub-charge being created & other procedures involved in the securitisation process


Please duly note, people like Basil deliberately avoid discussing the true process involved in illegally withholding & abusing the process of a mortgage

As the process proves, you cannot create a sub-charge or securitise without a legal right to do so

Operating in equity, does not give a legal right to create a sub-charge, or operate within the law necessary to create a securitisation


Anyone who says so otherwise, is deliberating spreading disinformation, the legal arguement of equity isnt supported by law, nor is it supported in the securitisation process, here in the U.K

Anonymous said...

.....but surely the mortgage deed and other documents that 'back up' the 395 for will somewhere have the details of the original borrowers mortgage (not that this will be available at Companies House)

?

Basil said...

Consider this, if you will

You grant a charge to your mortgage provider, in return for a loan to purchase your house.

The mortgage provider grants a charge to the spv, in return for a loan for the same value of your mortgage

Now if an SPV has provided a loan to the mortgage provider in return for a charge, how has the legal title of your mortgage been legally assigned to the SPV ?

If you think the above is based upon make believe, take a quick read:

Re: Clavis Securities PLC (used as this securitisation is specifically refered to in Carmel Butler's report)

http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?id=20070703070000Z6837

i) Loan to originator

Where a transfer of a financial asset does not qualify for derecognition, the transferee does not recognise the transferred asset as its assets.

The transferee derecognises the cash or other consideration paid and recognises a receivable from the transferor. In relation to the mortgage portfolios transferred to the Company, derecognition is considered to be inappropriate for the portfolio seller's or originator (Basinghall Finance PLC) own financial statements as the originator has retained significant risks and rewards of that financial asset.

The Company's financial statements are therefore prepared on the basis that its acquisitions of beneficial interests in mortgage portfolios are recognised as a collateralised non-recourse loan to the portfolio seller.

Unless I am reading the above incorrectly, the SPV has provided a loan to the mortgage provider, to the value of the mortgage portfolio.

In my honest opinion, it blows a mighty big hole in the boat of Ms Butler's legal assignment argument.

Basil said...

In an attempt to reach a point of clarity / sanity, it would be most beneficial to review the applicable documentation.

In this very blog, Ms Butler has stated:

9 March 2009 07:47
"A reading of any securitisation prospectus filed at the UK Listing Authority will confirm transfer of legal title."

As I have previously posted, in her report, Ms Butler refers to Clavis Securities. Therefore, if would make common sense to look at the prospectus for this particular securitisation.

http://www.sfmlimited.com/files/prospectus/Clavis%20Securities%20PLC/001.pdf

1.6 Series Portfolio Legal Title Holder Basinghall Finance PLC whose registered office is at Woolgate Exchange, 25 Basinghall Street, London EC2V 5HA, in respect of each Mortgage in the Series Portfolio."

(please see s-13 and please note LEGAL TITLE)

"Basinghall Finance PLC
Basinghall Finance PLC is the General Treasurer and will, in relation to the Series, be the Series Portfolio Seller,
the Series Portfolio Legal Title Holder, the Series Special Servicer and the Series Treasurer."

(Please see s-71 and LEGAL TITLE)

The document, used by Ms Butler to create her report, does not say that the legal title has been assigned to the SPV, on the contrary this document confirms that the legal title is not transferred.

In relation to Clavis Securities, it has a charge on a loan provided to Basinghall Finance.

Basil said...

Apologies, also taken from

http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?id=20070703070000Z6837

"8. Loan to originator

The Company purchased a portfolio of mortgage loans from Basinghall Finance PLC, however, as the principal risk and rewards of these mortgage loans remain with
Basinghall Finance PLC, these are not deemed for accounting purposes to have transferred to the Company.

Accordingly, the Company accounts for the transaction as a loan to Basinghall Finance PLC as originator.

The loan to Basinghall Finance PLC is denominated in sterling and bears interest at a variable rate. It is secured on the beneficial interest in a portfolio of
residential mortgage loans. The repayment of the loan to originator is linked to
the repayment of the loan notes.

Does the above honestly suggest that the legal title has been assigned to the SPV Clavis Securities ?

Anonymous said...

Hi Basil

It is reasonable to assume you are a legal professional?

Basil said...

Hello Anonymous 13 May 17:43,

What is the relevance of my profession ?

My profession, would not mean that I was right and it would not mean I was wrong.

The question, should not be what is my profession. The question should be did Clavis provide a loan to Basinghall Finance.

I am sure you 'Anonymous 13 May 2009 17:43', of all people will fully appreciate the significance and the full implications of that question.

Especially, if someone was intending to use securitisation, in any case involving Basinghall and Clavis.

Anonymous said...

Crumbs...Just asking

Basil said...

No offence intended "annoymous 13 may 2009 22:28", I was a little taken aback that instead of taking the time to respond to the posted information, you decided to query my profession.

It appeared to be a waste of a post, as it has no bearing on the topic being discussed.

Remember poor Mark has to authorise each post, I would suggest that you only post with regard to the topic of debate.

Anything else could be interpreted as an attempt to move away from or avoidance of the arguments raised.

With regards to Clavis and Basinghall specifically, how does the granting of a charge by Basinghall on a loan from Clavis, possibily mean that the legal title to a consumers mortgage has been legally assigned to Clavis ?

Any arguments regarding s.395 are flawed as it has no bearing on which party, either Basinghall or Clavis has the right to instigate proceedings against a borrower for repossession.

The entire argument that the legal title has been assigned to Clavis is fundamentally flawed on every level and has absolutley no basis in english law or for that matter common sense.

It is only possible to reach the conclusion that the legal title has been assigned to Clavis and that Bashinghall is not entitled legally to instigate proceedings, if you totally ignore legislative and case law.

Feel free to post anything to PROVE contrary

Basil said...

In her report to the treasury, Carmel Butler stated:

page 203
"For example, Clavis Securities were sold GMAC mortgages under an absolute assignment with full title guarantee on or around 15 June 2006 and after some 2½ years have failed to register its ownership at the Land Registry."

However, this statement is directly contradicted by the evidence used by her to compile her report.

page 210
"Clavis Securities plc Asset Backed Note Programme Series 2006-1 Note Issue Supplement dated 8 June 2006"

The evidence used by Ms Butler, ( http://www.sfmlimited.com/files/prospectus/Clavis%20Securities%20PLC/001.pdf ) confirms that the legal title to the Mortgage Portfolio, was actually sold to Basinghall Finance, by GMAC and not to Clavis Securities, as detailed in the overview diagram s-4.

It most disappointing that a decision was made to portray an inaccurate description of the true events

The arguments raised by Ms Butler have already been the subject of proccedings in the Court Of Appeal.

Paragon Finance Plc v Pender [2005] EWCA Civ 760

The following judgements were made by the highly respected

LORD JUSTICE WARD, LORD JUSTICE JONATHAN PARKER and LORD JUSTICE CARNWATH

"In my judgment Mr and Mrs Pender's case on this issue is misconceived. It is common ground that Paragon, as registered proprietor of the Legal Charge, retains legal ownership of it. One incident of its legal ownership – and an essential one at that – is the right to possession of the mortgaged property. I can see no basis upon which it can be contended that an uncompleted agreement to transfer the Legal Charge to the SPV (that is to say an agreement under which, pending completion, the SPV has no more than an equitable interest in the mortgage) can operate in law to divest Paragon of an essential incident of its legal ownership. In my judgment as a matter of principle the right to possession conferred by the Legal Charge remains exercisable by Paragon as the legal owner of the Legal Charge (i.e. as the registered proprietor of it), notwithstanding that Paragon may have transferred the beneficial ownership of the Legal Charge to the SPV."

"The only question then is whether the SPV should have been joined in the proceedings as an additional claimant. In my judgment, the answer to that question is plainly: No. On the assumption that the consideration for the transfer of the Legal Charge has been paid in full, Paragon has since retained its legal ownership of the Legal Charge as trustee for the SPV (see Whiteley v. Delaney [1914] AC 132 at 141 per Viscount Haldane LC)"

"Nor, in my judgment, can Mr Page find any support for his submission in the Land Registration Act 2002"

Reading the other posts made on this blog, I expect that my motivations will be questioned. My only motivation is to correct the incorrect assumptions and sweeping statements that have been made. I do this for personal, rather than professional reasons.

Carmel said...

Basil, oh Basil, do try and get your facts straight. You asked: "With regards to Clavis and Basinghall specifically, how does the granting of a charge by Basinghall on a loan from Clavis, possibily mean that the legal title to a consumers mortgage has been legally assigned to Clavis ?"

The answer is that it doesn't because your facts are incorrect. Basinghall did not grant a charge to Clavis on a loan from Clavis. You have misread your documents.

Clavis granted a sub-charge to the Security Trustee. If you bother to read the prospectus property and read the s.395 charge that Clavis registered at Companies House, you will see that Clavis granted the sub-charge to the Security Trustee which is a Jersey based company, namely HSBC Trustee (C.I.) Limited.

As for your reasoning with regard to the "accounting purposes" and what is "deemed" and "treated" for accounting purposes, there is no concern as to what ruses are pulled for accounting purposes because those manoeuvres are tax evasions. We are concerned with the legal analysis and the correct legal position. Therefore, the manner in which these companies manipulate their accounts for tax evasion purposes is irrelevant on this debate vis a vis the borrowers. The accounting ruses are the concern of the tax man who is also being shafted.

Additionally, you may wish to consider this fact. I have inspected the actual contract of sale between Basinghall and Clavis and can say with absolute certainty that Basinghall sold the mortgages to Clavis by way of: quote "an absolute assignment with full title guarantee". At law, that is a sale of the legal title.

Carmel said...

BTW Basil, did you know that KPMG resigned their appointment as auditors for Clavis? (See the Companies House filings where KPMG registered their resignation). Don't know what caused KPMG to resign, but I dare say it would be very interest to know their reason for resigning as the Clavis auditors. Whatever their reason, it suggests that KPMG were not prepared to continue to put their name on the Clavis accounts.

Basil said...

Hello Carmel.

The extracts that I have posted are from the accounts Audited by KPMG for the period between 11 April 2006 and 31 December 2006. as I understand it, the resignation of KPMG was not recorded by Companies House until 17 January 2008.


As you say, you don't know why KPMG resigned. Therefore, I am sure you will agree and will not dispute that your suggestion that it was because KPMG was not prepared to continue to put its name on the Clavis accounts is pure speculation.

However, it is not speculation and it is a documented fact that KPMG did put its names to the accounts filed with companies house on 11 July 2007, which detail the loan provided by Clavis Securities to Basinghall.

Basil said...

Hello Carmel,

I can confirm that I have very carefully read the filed s.395 form.

I note that this clearly states:

Amount Secured by the mortgage or charge

The Security liabilities being:
(a)All General Waterfall liabilities and
(b)All Series Waterfall Liabilities

Relating to each series .
[See definitions in attached schedule]

The s.395 form confirms that the amount secured by a charge is both the general and series waterfall liabilities.

This therefore presents the question what are the general and series waterfall liabilities secured by a charge.

The answer to that question is:

the monies, obligations and liabilities (present or future, actual or contingent) due, owing incurred or payable by the Issuer (whether as principle or surety and whether or not jointly with another) to the General/Series Waterfall creditors under or pursuant to the relevant General Documents, in each case at the times when and in the currency or currencies and in the manner in which, they are expressed to be owing, incurred or payable as provided in each such General Document.

I understand and appreciate that you may have viewed the actual contract of sale.

However, it would not be advisable/wise to base or form an opinion or legal argument based upon seven words of a multiple page agreement.


I would ask you to bear in mind, that if someone does not agree with your interpretations, it does not automatically mean that their understanding or interpretations are incorrect.


Carmel, on a more personal note, I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all the best with your upcoming case and hope that you are successful with the points/arguments you have raised. Repossession is a horrible business and I would not wish it upon anyone.

Anonymous said...

Oh now it all becomes clear

Alvarez said...

Anonymous said:
"The real question that has not been asked, is in relation to Carmel Butler's motives in firstly making this submission and secondly ensuring that it is discussed on a number of different websites including consumer help forums."

Carmel said:
"Nonetheless, I have already declared and make no secret of my motivation which is, like many other law abiding citizens of this country: a natural abhorrence for injustice and abuse of power."

Basil said:
"Carmel, on a more personal note, I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all the best with your upcoming case and hope that you are successful with the points/arguments you have raised. Repossession is a horrible business and I would not wish it upon anyone."

Motivations now become crystal clear

Anonymous said...

Well Basil even if true to disclose personal info on a public forum about another poster without their consent is appalling

It leaves me to ask why is it because your running out of arguments or are your motivers more sinister

Basil said...

Dear Anonymous 23 May 2009 22:48 a.k.a Carmel I can assure you that my "motivers" are not sinister in any form. As you have personally posted details (be it limited) of your case on the Consumer Action Group website, this information is already in the public domain.

To now be appalled, as it has also been discussed here, appears mind boggling and somewhat over dramatic.

Carmel, I do genuinally wish you well and every success with your case. However, I consider that your arguments in relation to Basinghall / Clavis are without merit.

As demonstrated by the documentation relating to Basinghall and Clavis, a charge was granted by Basinghall to Clavis as security for a loan.

Therefore, your arguments with regard to the LRA 2002 s.27 are without merit. The original charge granted by the borrower, has not been transferred (s.27 (3a))to Clavis, neither has a sub-charge been granted (upon the charge granted by the borrower) (s.27 (3b) ).

A new charge has been granted by Basinghall to Clavis. Clavis then granted a sub-charge to HSBC Trustee (C.I) Limited.The faith you have previously expressed in the securitisation prospectus is equally without merit. As I have previously posted, the prospectus relating to Clavis does not confirm that legal title has been assigned to Clavis.

On the contrary, there is even a little diagram demonstrating that the legal title has not been assigned to Clavis and was in fact retained by Basinghall (please see s-4)

http://www.sfmlimited.com/files/prospectus/Clavis%20Securities%20PLC/001.pdf

Furthermore, S-13 and s-71 both confirm that Basinghall Finance is the legal title holder.You say:

"We are concerned with the legal analysis and the correct legal position."As you are now fully aware, the legal position was established in the Court Of Appeal.

Paragon Finance Plc v Pender [2005] EWCA Civ 760 "In my judgment as a matter of principle the right to possession conferred by the Legal Charge remains exercisable by Paragon as the legal owner of the Legal Charge (i.e. as the registered proprietor of it), notwithstanding that Paragon may have transferred the beneficial ownership of the Legal Charge to the SPV."

"On the assumption that the consideration for the transfer of the Legal Charge has been paid in full, Paragon has since retained its legal ownership of the Legal Charge as trustee for the SPV (see Whiteley v. Delaney [1914] AC 132 at 141 per Viscount Haldane LC)"

"Nor, in my judgment, can Mr Page find any support for his submission in the Land Registration Act 2002"
I am aware that the legal requirements (Law of Property Act 1925 s.136) to establish a legal (rather than an equitable) assignment, have been discussed at some length.

As you are also aware these legal requirements (including notice to borrower) have not been met.

Contrary to your continued speculation, it is not a matter of me "running out of arguments" . In my honest opinion your arguments do not appear to have merit.

In my view:

1) Your reliance on the content of the prospectus is flawed
2) You reliance on the LRA 2002, is flawed.
3) Court of Appeal Judgements demonstrate the basis of your argument is flawed.

There appears to be very little to support your agruments in relation to Basinghall and Clavis. It would appear that you are reliant upon seven words from a multiple page agreement.

The term, "flogging a dead horse" sadly springs to mindsprings

Basil said...

They say the proof is the pudding Carmel,

Did you have the opportunity to present your arguments during your case ?

Were you successful ?

Roony said...

Well Carmel,

you gave hope (maybe false) hope to a great number of people in relation to using securitisation as a defence to stop repossession.

Can you at least have the decentcy, to let us all know, if the faith we placed in you and your arguments was misplaced or not.

Roony said...

Well Carmel,

you gave hope (maybe false) hope to a great number of people in relation to using securitisation as a defence to stop repossession.

Can you at least have the decentcy, to let us all know, if the faith we placed in you and your arguments was misplaced or not.

Anonymous said...

Roony I suspect Carmel can't, for the moment, at least comment on an 'open' forum cos it may be that not everyone is who they claim to be Therefore as difficult at it may be I suggest you may have to be patient

Anonymous said...

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200102/cmhansrd/vo011016/halltext/11016h05.htm

Joe 90 said...

Greetings Anonymous 8 June 16:57,

Strange that someone using the name anonymous, appears to take exception to the fact that some of the posters on this blog may not be who they appear to be.

That in itself is comical.. Are you, who you appear to be ? For that matter, who do you appear to be ?

I have read this blog on a number of occassions. No one appears to be claims to be anyone or anything.

You have said that you suspect that Carmel can't at least for the moment post on a public forum. This could be interpreted to mean that she was successful and may be restrained by some form of confidentiality agreement.

Sadly, this interpretation or the attempt to project this interpretation would be as flawed as the legal assignment arguments used by Carmel.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Carmel was on this occassion at least unsuccessful.

Interested parties have attempted to build momentum into the securitization argument. It the hope that it may add weight to their own cases. Sadly, a lack of understanding of the law and how securitisation is effected in this Country compared to our American cousins, mean that their arguments will and in some cases have already failed.

I see little benefit, in any attempts to continue to give false hope to borrowers that securitization arguments can be used to prevent reposession.

There are a number if programs that would be if more assistance.

Anonymous said...

Carmel has not abandoned the consumer’s cause. The case was transferred from her home county court to another more distant county court where, there was a judge who originated from the same chamber as the lender’s counsel. Naturally, he decided for the lender. You decide whether or not there was a fair hearing. And you decide whether or not the lender’s Counsel could be said to have had confidence in his counter arguments when this “transfer” manoeuvre was organised just a few weeks prior to the trial date. The case is now under appeal to be heard at the Court of Appeal.

Anonymous said...

Mmmmm

Carmel has not abandoned the consumer's cause ??

It sounds like a very noble cause.

However, lets be a little more realistic. I am sure given the information posted previously, her cause is far more personal.

Conspiracy, Conspiracy, Conspiracy.

Someone please call Agent Mulder, we have a real X-file here.

Maybe instead of posting theories, which appear to be casting aspertions in relation to the Judge and playing smoke and mirrors, you may like to post the reason why the Judge did not find in your favour.

Then the merits of the judgement could be discussed.

Somehow, I do not think that will occur.

(equitable assignment anyone ?)

Anonymous said...

"Carmel has not abandoned the consumer’s cause"

Wouldn't I be right in thinking that it was not that long ago a certain, someone worked for a company involved in securitisation.

This certain person did not appear to care about the consumer's cause until it directly affected this certain person.

Manuel said...

Hey Annoymous 15 June 2009 08:35,

I am right that you are basically saying you/she lost subject to appeal ?

Anonymous said...

Case Reference: B5/2009/1187

Title: Basinghall Finance PLC v Butler

Type:Permission to Appeal

Appeal/Application: for permission to appeal and a stay of execution

Hearing Status: Fixed on 27-Oct-09
Venue: London

Constitution: THE PRESIDENT OF THE FAMILY DIVISION

Case Result: Refused on 27-Oct-09

Tracking Information:
27-Oct-09: Case given a final judgment
06-Aug-09: Case renewed to oral hearing
31-Jul-09: Case passed to Associate for Order to be drawn
30-Jul-09: Permission to Appeal referred to Lord/Lady Justice
15-Jul-09: Bundle(s) approved
08-Jun-09: Letter sent to applicant/solicitor to request bundles and/or documents

stop repossession said...

Excellent and interesting comments!

on stop stop repossession

Anonymous said...

Clearly there are some here who have not been keeping abreast of developements in the USA & how the lenders there have tried to defraud the consumer en'masse ts no different here manufactured arrears none existing correspondence etc etc

Anonymous said...

Given that we have not heard head or tail from or about Carmen since her posts; one could easily assume that her arguments failed on the basis that where the original lender can show that they remain registered at H M Land Registry (which they all seem to be able to do in securitized business models) that the entire argument will fail - this will be regardless of what can be proved by way of any securitization documents that a Borrower can find to show that a 'true sale' has occurred.

The reason is simply because, a registered title is conclusive proof of title.

You will not find any Judge who will over-ride a duly registered title.

Borrowers countrywide can shout from the roof tops as loudly as they like that their mortgage has been securitized - but, at most; all you can prove in court is that a sale occurred but you will not be able to show that the original lender should not have the title that it holds - and that is the crux - because if the original lender and the SPV and the trustee all agree that they are not going to update HM land registry - until they do; there is nothing that a Borrower can currently get a Judge to do to change the situation - there is a brick wall - they won't budge - this is possibly why you will find that a lot of people who have 'championed' the cause - simply disappear - the reality of finding out that you cannot over ride the fact that the original lender has retained title is somewhat 'humbling'.

LES